What Comes After Awakening? Loch Kelly on Flow States

Amanda Wilson · 2026-09-15

### The Question Most Meditators Eventually Ask So you've had a glimpse. Maybe it lasted a few seconds, maybe a whole afternoon. That first taste of openness — where the usual chatter quiets down and something vast and still shows up — can feel like the whole point of practice. But then what? That's exactly the question host Michael Taft puts to meditation teacher Loch Kelly in this conversation, and their answer is more interesting than you might expect. ### Waking Up vs. Waking With Kelly draws a distinction that's worth sitting with. "Waking up," in his framing, is that initial recognition — openness, stillness, the sense that there's no separate self running the show. "Waking with" is something else entirely. It's when appearances themselves — sounds, sights, thoughts, the whole parade — are seen as inseparable from that awake awareness. Not something you're watching from a distance. Not something you're trying to escape. Just one taste. That shift sounds subtle on paper. In practice, it changes how you move through an ordinary Tuesday. ### Where Flow States Fit In The conversation also wades into flow states — those stretches where effort drops away and action seems to happen on its own. Athletes talk about it. Musicians chase it. Coders fall into it at 2 a.m. Kelly and Taft explore how flow and awakening overlap, and where they part ways. Flow tends to come and go with conditions. Awake awareness, in their view, doesn't depend on the right circumstances to be present. A few threads they pull on: - How flow states can become a doorway into deeper recognition - Why chasing flow as a goal tends to backfire - What "one taste" actually means in daily life - The role of small glimpses versus stabilized knowing ### Why This Matters for Mindful Living If you're building a mindfulness practice — whether you're a coach, a therapist, or just someone trying to be more present — this episode offers something practical. It reframes the goal. Instead of chasing peak experiences, you start noticing the awareness that's already here, even in the middle of a messy day. As Kelly puts it, the invitation isn't to add something to your life. It's to recognize what's been quietly present all along. ### A Simple Takeaway You don't need a retreat or a perfect morning routine to explore this. Next time you're standing in line, waiting for coffee, or stuck in traffic, try this: notice the space around the thoughts. Not pushing anything away. Just letting it all be one thing. That's the kind of small shift that, over time, tends to ripple outward. So if you've ever wondered what comes after the first glimpse, this conversation is a good place to sit with the question a while longer.